tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4894420494437933222.post7187130187146773922..comments2024-03-12T06:46:16.405-07:00Comments on TOLKNIĘTY: The Tolkien Family Tree on Ancestry.co.uk Why I think John B. Tolkien was born in Gdańskgaladhornhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00743806388792756679noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4894420494437933222.post-80785069755952143252017-05-06T17:14:07.116-07:002017-05-06T17:14:07.116-07:00Thank you, Ryszard.
I am afraid that I do not fi...Thank you, Ryszard. <br /><br />I am afraid that I do not find Mrs. Linda Tolkien's work to be very credible without further documentation. She has been working at a time where connecting her own branch of Tolkiens with the branch of the world-famous author would be an extremely desirable and tempting thing to do, even without evidence. <br /><br /><br />You have (and thank you very much for that!) demonstrated that Tolkiens, using various variant spellings, were not entirely uncommon in Prussia in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, so the fact that John Benjamin initially used German spelling is not surprising in itself, if he was first or second generation immigrant from, very likely, Prussia. <br /><br />As far as I have understood the facts, there could be other ways of explaining them than assuming that the two were brothers, and my assessment is that their being brothers is not necessarily more probable than other explanations. <br /><br />I'll offer two alternative explanations to show what I mean: <br /><br />a) Daniel emigrated from Danzig to London. There he settles in a part of town with many German Lutherans, and in the local church he meets another Tolkien, John Benjamin, who is either himself immigrated from Germany (likely Prussia), or is the son of an immigrant. The two, who had not met before, decide that they must be family (even though they cannot decide the details of the relation), and treat each other as such, even to the point where John Benjamin's son gets apprenticed to Daniel and Daniel's wife (probably) witnesses John Benjamin's marriage.<br /><br />b) Daniel and John Benjamin are family in the Danzig area – third or second cousins, perhaps, or perhaps even first cousins. Both are second or third sons, and so neither will inherit the family business, and they decide to seek their fortune together in England. <br /><br />You seem to be working from an underlying assumption that all Tolkiens are at some point a single family, and I have no way of knowing how likely this might be. If it is the case, the two would of course be related regardless of which version we choose, but this might be fairly distant in scenario a). In scenario b), they are of course more closely related, but still not brothers. <br /><br />As I know nothing about the emigration history from Prussia to England at that time, I can only base my assessments on a more generalised knowledge of emigration, but on such a basis, I would say that both a) and b) each are at least as probable as the scenario making them brothers. <br /><br /><br />Personally, I would dearly love to find that Daniel and John Benjamin were closely related (whether brothers or relatively close cousins as per my scenario b) above), but as a scientist I also tend to get more suspicious of my evidence when I notice that I would like something to be true. My training (I am a physicist) makes me look for alternative explanations that would explain the evidence (the observed facts) equally well, and if this is possible, and if such alternative explanations do not seem too far-fetched (and I would argue that neither of my scenarios above are that), I try to see what kind of evidence might help. <br /><br />In this case, evidence in England for the granting of citizenship to John Benjamin or one of his descendants would be good. <br />Church books showing the baptisms of either or both of the two would of course also be a real break-through. Troelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07515711722551393026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4894420494437933222.post-15837270504455045662017-04-21T10:23:53.635-07:002017-04-21T10:23:53.635-07:00For me an interesting proof is also this that a me...For me an interesting proof is also this that a member of the Tolkien family (Mrs Linda W. Tolkien is the wife of Mr Tolkien who is a descendant of George Tolkien, son of John Benjamin) treats J. B. Tolkien as brother of Daniel. Isn't it a strong argument?galadhornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00743806388792756679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4894420494437933222.post-58400796682087274332017-04-21T10:21:02.815-07:002017-04-21T10:21:02.815-07:00Thank you, Troels. The voice like yours is importa...Thank you, Troels. The voice like yours is important in research like mine. Thanks to you I am more careful and slowler to make brave assumptions. At the moment I am simply looking for the baptism acts of Daniel and Johann.<br /><br />And what do you think on (3)? We can see that John Benjamin in the beginning spells his own name in the German way. And he belongs to the German Lutheran parish in London. What about such a proof?<br /><br />Do you have other competing theory concerning Johann Benjamin Tolkien. How do you think where could he come to London from?galadhornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00743806388792756679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4894420494437933222.post-12576735438724671532017-04-21T05:04:35.447-07:002017-04-21T05:04:35.447-07:00This is very interesting, thank you!
Of these, n...This is very interesting, thank you! <br /><br />Of these, no. 2 – that George became apprenticed to Daniel – is a good indication. <br /><br />The rest are at best vague indications, and no. 4 is circular reasoning: the only reason to assume that the Ann Austin that was a witness for John Benjamin Tolkien's wedding was the same Ann Austin that had married Daniel Tolkien is the assumption that the two were brothers – without that assumption, the link becomes very tenuous. <br /><br />But in cases such as this, all we can do is to collect tenuous evidence. Though the individual fibre may be very weak, together they can nonetheless form a strong rope, and in a similar manner, we can hope to gather enough such tenuous evidence that it, taken together, becomes compelling. <br /><br />Finding the apprenticeship is a large step in that direction, and it definitely puts it beyond doubt that Daniel Gotlieb and John Benjamin Tolkien knew each other <i>in London</i>, but as evidence of a family relation, the evidence is still far from conclusive. Troelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07515711722551393026noreply@blogger.com